My final interview with Mr. Juan Pablo Ballesteros. I had the opportunity to try some of the food prepared at Limosneros Restaurant. This included tacos with Crayrish and Cocopaches (an insect). It may might sound creepy or gross but it isn't. The Cocopaches tasted great and well they do look a bit scary but no more scary than the Crayfish.
I want to express my heartfelt thanks to Nicholas Gilman who arranged for the meeting with Juan Pablo and through out the conversation added his own insights on the state of Mexican cooking.
Please check out one Nicholas's books, and if you are in Mexico City I highly recommend you stop by Limosneros for Lunch of Dinner, for a Taco or Mezcal tasting, Etc.
Links:
Nicholas's Book (Amazon): Good Food in Mexico City: Food Stalls, Fondas & Fine Dining (Kindle edition) / GoodFoodMexicoCity.com / The Essential Guide to Modern Mexican Dining in Mexico City
Transcript:
Harry Hawk:
I made them try it and it’s just crunchy. It’s like eating a little bit of a crunchy fishtail or fishbone that’s been deep-fried.
(00:00:08.9)
Nicholas Gilman:
Yeah, there’s nothing scary about it and it’s really quite beautiful I think.
(00:00:12.8)
Harry Hawk:
This is Harry Hawk and this is Talking About Everything and I’m back with just a short conversation here with Juan Pablo again. We’ve been talking about Mexico City. We’ve been talking about sourcing organic and indigenous ingredients. Juan Pablo, I don’t know what you know about my own background, but I started in technology but I spent 10 years running restaurants and creating restaurants in New York, a burger place called Schnäck.
(00:00:37.6)
The big thing that I’m most well known for is with the port authority who created a beach bar in a desolate part of Queens. We created basically a fake beach much like say the plages in Paris or something like that. And you go into a lot of kitchens in New York, everywhere we have our Mexican friends, they’re there in the kitchens. We cannot run our kitchens without all of the contributors that’s certainly including the chefs and line cooks from Mexico. When you’re creating a new way to do Mexican food here in Mexico, how hard is it to find the right cook? I mean, did you know right away who you wanted or was it a trial process? Anything that you can say? I’m just curious how you went about that.
(00:01:17.0)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Well, at first we didn’t know who to pick and I did know people from the restaurant business, since I was acquainted with the whole thing due to my parents place. But it was then when we were starting Limosneros that I started talking to a friend and we really got along. We had the same ideas and like Nick mentioned I am not a chef. I don’t know how to cook. I focus on drinks and industrial design of the whole thing, and that’s what I like to do. So, something that really adds to my project was a chef that was really in touch with ingredients and knew to take the essence of every ingredient and respect it. And based in traditional Mexican cuisine like the type of indigenous corn that we have or the chiles or the fish, or the organic meats or anything like that to respect it and to make these recipes that feel modern. That everyone that walks in here knows they’re contemporary. That was difficult to find, but I was lucky and I stumbled upon him and he’s at this very moment cooking some escamoles for us.
(00:02:20.9)
Nicholas Gilman:
Escamoles are ant eggs and I guess they’re available all year round. Is that so?
(00:02:27.1)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Yeah. There’s a season to them, but they really don’t lose anything if you freeze them.
(00:02:32.3)
Nicholas Gilman:
We also call them Mexican caviar because in some ways eating them reminds you of eating caviar. They are small, white, oval shaped things that kind of pop in your mouth and are a little bit salty and a little bit...is fishy the right word, maybe not. Well, see they’re so often prepared with so much garlic that you can’t taste them that’s kind of the problem. That’s why it’s great to have them done by a chef who’s more experienced who really knows what he’s doing and you have two chefs in the kitchen.
(00:03:03.8)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Exactly. Their names are Marcos Fulcheri and Carlo Meléndez.
(00:03:08.3)
Nicholas Gilman:
And they’ve been with you since the beginning?
(00:03:10.2)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Yes. They both feed each other with ideas and they designed the dishes that are coming out every month, which is a difficult process because you have to invent seven new dishes every four weeks plus you have to keep usual many that we have year round with things that we can get always and to try to make that better. For example, right now we are trying to get 19 different types of corn so we can make a whole menu out of it and then use them in the thing that they should be used on. For example, it’s not the same to use a type of corn, like blue corn for example, for _____ (03:45) or this comforts treat for quesadilla or taco, or whatever than to use another type of corn for what we call _____ (03:54), which can be a dessert.
(00:03:56.8)
Nicholas Gilman:
And let me add that these varieties of corn are fast disappearing. We are receiving genetically modified corn from the United States, which is one single variety that’s putting all of these heirloom corns out of business, small farmers out of business. So, it’s the job of restaurants like Limosneros to rescue these varieties of corn and present them to the public. And we hope that this is going to be kind of a trickledown effect that these corns will be grown again, that they’ll be saved, because they are literally disappearing, as are indigenous languages, as is so much culture here and in the world.
(00:04:38.2)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
And yes, due to that we try to promote the harvesting of these corns, of these beans. We’re trying to get a lot of beans too. That is something that’s been happening too in Napa Valley, for example, with a place called Rancho Gordo, which is an amazing project of different plantations or parcels, or ranches of beans that have been collected by these guys and they can come from Poland or Canada, or Mexico, the States and it’s like a library of seeds, of beans. And that’s the diversity that we should keep and keep out the international monopolies such as Monsanto or all of them and have this array of flavors that make our gastronomy rich.
(00:05:22.2)
Harry Hawk:
Talking about gastronomy and gastronomic tourism, and we’re thinking of all around the world. Obviously, that’s some reason that you might go to Paris is for the food of course. Recently at the New York City Food Film Festival over the last several years we did a film both on _____ (05:35) and then another film called Finding Gaston all about the wave of food tourism that is in Peru in Lima. Is there a competition in a sense for attention, especially the American attention, about the food culture here and what you’re doing? Is Mexico waiting to have its Finding Gaston moment where all of a sudden the world comes running here or is it already happening?
(00:05:57.2)
Nicholas Gilman:
It’s been happening for a while. I think that Peru, which is a smaller and poorer country than Mexico but has an amazing gastronomy, has been really led by Gaston Acurio because he’s a natural leader, he’s more politically involved. And so, he’s brought people to that country. We have had much more tourism always in Mexico, but we don’t have a Gaston Acurio. So, it’s our job to really put out the word and we also are fighting the bad press that Mexico gets because of the narco-violence. We can’t really go without saying that it hasn’t touched us here in Mexico City, but people confuse the whole country with the border areas and some of the interior areas where these things are happening. So, we have a lot against us. It’s an uphill battle.
(00:06:49.3)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Mexican people is getting recognized for its culture and its gastronomy, and its cuisine that dates back from all of the monasteries where women called, _____ (06:59), used to make this traditional food, these traditional dishes that are recognized worldwide today. And people were trying to show this to the world and this is when in 2012 Mexican cuisine became...
(00:07:15.4)
Nicholas Gilman:
A patrimony out of humanity by UNESCO.
(00:07:18.2)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Exactly. Along with France and since then there has been this new wave of young chefs that are exactly the sons of these mothers, of these _____ (07:27) of these grandmothers who were traditional cooks. Due to new techniques and globalization we’ve been able to have all of this new expression of our Mexican.
(00:07:40.2)
Nicholas Gilman:
And there are two words that you can’t ignore when you’re having this conversation and those words are Enrique Olvera who is now an internationally known chef whose restaurant Pujol really was the first place in the country to bring these contemporary techniques to Mexican gastronomy. The trickledown effect of him is that all these chefs who have come out of his restaurant who are young are working in other places or opening their own places. There are several of them, Eduardo Garcia is the best known, he worked at Pujol and there are several others, and that is really a wonderful thing. And now, Olvera has gone international. He has a place in New York called Cosme. I believe he’s opening a place in Cuba, which is really amazing.
(00:08:27.4)
Harry Hawk:
That’s amazing. Not to interrupt you. What do we have here? What’s going on?
(00:08:31.4)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
So, our fish night. It’s what we call a river taco. Rivers are underestimated a bit and everyone goes for the sea. This is one of the tacos that I was talking to you about. This one what we call Taco De Río. It includes two types of crayfish. One that we call chacales in Mexico and the other one is called acociles and that one is a type of mini lobster.
(00:08:57.3)
Nicholas Gilman:
It looks like a tiny bright red lobster and the first one you mentioned looks like a shrimp. It’s a beautiful rosy color with kind of veins of red and on top of those shrimp, they’re about an inch and a half in diameter, are these tiny little mini, mini red lobsters that are about an inch each. And they are freshwater crayfish, as you say, and how are they prepared?
(00:09:23.4)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Well, to wrap the whole dish. We have cilantro coriander tortilla and bacon spread.
(00:09:29.2)
Nicholas Gilman:
Which is bright green. Absolutely gorgeous.
(00:09:32.2)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Exactly. The bacon spread, which would be like a surf and turf taco here, well that’s the idea and then pico de gallo with green apple. That should be always eat a taco with your hands. So, since it’s two just separate it from the meal give that one to Nick and then please have one, and you will be pairing this with Mezcal.
(00:09:51.8)
Nicholas Gilman:
If you don’t eat a taco with your hands it’s not a taco. The whole point of a taco is to be able to pick it up and eat it. I mean, that’s what a taco is. A taco is anything in a tortilla.
(00:10:02.5)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Exactly. You are right. And you are pairing this with Espadín Mezcal coming from the City of Oaxaca.
(00:10:11.6)
Nicholas Gilman:
Which is served in a little cup made out of gourd actually. It’s a plant that’s been dried, so it’s all very traditional.
(00:10:21.1)
Harry Hawk:
It’s awesome.
(00:10:21.5)
Nicholas Gilman:
It’s like seafood but sweet. There’s a little crunch from the acociles the little red lobster, the bacon puree brings in a little smoky flavor and there’s the tart and very lightly spicy cilantro sauce. It’s fabulous.
(00:10:39.1)
Harry Hawk:
The large river crayfish that look like shrimp they’re firm but tender and soft they’re not mushy. I’m not getting the green apple, but the whole thing works so well and then the pairing with the mezcal is fantastic.
(00:10:50.7)
Nicholas Gilman:
It’s a little sweet and sour. This taco has everything and above all it has umami.
(00:10:57.9)
Harry Hawk:
Indeed. I’m chewing some of these little red lobsters. Such intense flavor. So, I completely agree with what we’ve been saying. This is a taco and there’s parts of it that are like any other taco I’ve ever had and then it’s completely different from the artisinal nature of the tortilla to the layers of flavor, the layers of texture.
(00:11:17.2)
Nicholas Gilman:
Well, as I say a taco is anything. It’s anything you put into a tortilla. Obviously, it’s the combination and quality of the ingredients, and the intelligence of the chef who’s making it. However, I think the idea of making this kind of taco that’s a chef driven invented kind of thing is what’s new.
(00:11:37.2)
Harry Hawk:
And I can imagine maybe there’s somebody listening saying, “Oh, a taco is a taco.”
(00:11:41.1)
Nicholas Gilman:
There’s no such thing as a taco. A taco is anything. A taco is, as I say, it’s even more than a sandwich. It’s more all encompassing. It can be sweet. It can be savory.
(00:11:53.2)
Harry Hawk:
To go back to the US, to my country. Yes, there is the American grilled cheese sandwich with the Campbell’s tomato soup and there’s a thousand artisinal versions of that, right. The whole line of restaurants, farm to table, and new American are doing the same things with our cuisine. And it’s what you do at home if you’re a cook and you’re trying different ingredients, and making something unique.
(00:12:15.5)
Nicholas Gilman:
That’s true, but we have tradition that goes back even longer than the Conquest or the Spanish. So, we’re bringing in traditions, pre-Hispanic traditions, European traditions and contemporary chef kind of thought coming from Spain and New York, and we’re bringing much more tradition than the United States. A California cuisine, as wonderful as it is, was invented. Of course, European tradition comes into it. Playing with things that have been...those little red lobsters have been eaten in Mexico for millennia.
(00:12:49.4)
Harry Hawk:
Part of what I was trying to say in a sense is that we should have the permission as eaters and chefs to try these things, and to try different combinations. And as long as we don’t outlaw anybody else from doing something different. One of the things I was going to ask Juan Pablo, but he’s had to step away for a minute and perhaps you know. If somebody wants to get into becoming a chef in the United States, of course they might come to where I teach at CUNY NYCCT in the Hospitality and Management Program, but there’s the famous programs like the CIA, Culinary Institute of America, and so forth. Is there kind of the academic side of modern Mexican cooking if I wanted to become a Mexican chef?
(00:13:27.6)
Nicholas Gilman:
There are a number of culinary institutes here. Until very recently none of them taught Mexican food. Isn’t that interesting? They taught kind of international European techniques. There was a Cordon Bleu here, which I think is closing, but now there are several new schools. There’s one called _____ (13:47) teaches traditional Mexican cooking and techniques and that’s a wonderful thing. So, I guess you would have to learn Spanish first, but it can be done. Cocopaches are from the state of Puebla. These are the insects that we were talking about the big black beetles and it’s served with little dots of beautifully colored sauce. The green sauce is epazote, which is an herb and there is a chipotle sauce, and the sort of raviolis that these bugs are perched on is made of a squash blossom flower filled with a fresh cheese.
(00:14:28.3)
Harry Hawk:
So, this is similar or identical to the dish that you described.
(00:14:31.6)
Nicholas Gilman:
Yes. This is the dish I described. Slightly different in its configuration, but yes.
(00:14:37.1)
Harry Hawk:
All right. So, I’ve got some pictures and there are bugs on this food.
(00:14:41.4)
Nicholas Gilman:
And they’re all for you.
(00:14:42.7)
Harry Hawk:
And the waiter knows it because he brought it to us. Should we wait for Juan Pablo? We’ve eaten in my family bugs from the sea for a long time, but here’s my first Cocopaches. Did I say that right?
(00:14:55.9)
Nicholas Gilman:
You did.
(00:14:56.5)
Harry Hawk:
Cocopaches. Down the hatch.
(00:14:59.2)
Nicholas Gilman:
Buen provecho. Bon appetite. Can you actually taste the Cocopaches?
(00:15:06.1)
Harry Hawk:
I made them to try it and it’s just crunchy. It’s like eating a little bit of a crunchy fishtail or fishbone that’s been deep-fried.
(00:15:14.9)
Nicholas Gilman:
Yeah. There’s nothing scary about it and it’s really quite beautiful I think.
(00:15:18.6)
Harry Hawk:
Architecturally, it’s a little different from a lobster or eating the head of a shrimp that’s been deep-fried in a Japanese restaurant.
(00:15:25.8)
Nicholas Gilman:
But it’s kind of similar the experience is.
(00:15:28.5)
Harry Hawk:
So, I just had a Cocopaches by itself and I can taste a little bit of the oil, but it’s just crunchy and just delicious. Earthy in a very nice way. It’s enjoyable.
(00:15:40.6)
Nicholas Gilman:
I’ve eaten many of them.
(00:15:41.6)
Harry Hawk:
Absolutely delicious. Now, what’s this here? We have some other accompaniments.
(00:15:46.5)
Nicholas Gilman:
So, this here is salt in which have been ground smoky gu’sanos de magei, which are the little worms that are found in the maguey plant and they are the traditional compliment to Mezcal, and then we have some orange slices next to it. So, you are supposed to take a little pinch of the gu’sanos salt and have it between sips of the Mezcal. It kind of refreshes the palate, as does of course the orange.
(00:16:15.8)
Harry Hawk:
I mean, is there any relation here when I think about being in a very bad bar in America having a margarita with some salt on the rim?
(00:16:23.6)
Nicholas Gilman:
Yes, there’s a total relation to that definitely but this is a little bit more refined, but it comes from the tradition. This is how they drink Mezcal. Actually, two things on the plate and I think the other one is the chapulines, which is grasshoppers that are fried and ground up. We have to have Juan Pablo tell us.
(00:16:42.5)
Harry Hawk:
It’s like bacon. I mean, there’s burger restaurants now, big chains of hundreds of stores that do a quick milkshake or something.
(00:16:48.9)
Nicholas Gilman:
They should serve grasshoppers.
(00:16:51.6)
Harry Hawk:
Maybe the Mezcal a little bit first helped. I have always said as a point of pride, “If you find something that you eat on a regular basis your family, your friends eat it, I’m willing to try it.” Now, if it’s something that you’re not willing to eat yourself maybe I don’t want to try it either.
(00:17:07.6)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
I wouldn’t serve it either.
(00:17:09.0)
Harry Hawk:
Absolutely, delicious from the tacos down to these little ravioli squashes with the cheese filling, the crunchiness, the earthiness. Nicholas was explaining the salts and then he thought this was grasshopper maybe.
(00:17:22.4)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Grasshopper and the other one’s agave worm salt and they’re made in Guerrero state. They’re not very aggressive to the mouth. And then we always have like a fruitier one with hibiscus. For example, we have one with mole. So, Mexican sauce but two of them are insect driven and the other one’s like fruitier.
(00:17:45.9)
Harry Hawk:
Well, it was fantastic. I mean, this little taste of everything has been great. Are you drinking the same Mezcal as before or are you drinking something different now?
(00:17:53.3)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
No, the same Mezcal. I just take a slower pace because I’m here all day.
(00:17:59.3)
Harry Hawk:
And I understand that. At my restaurant Schnäck, I would train myself not to eat anything and then 1 o’clock in the morning we’d close, and I’d be starving to death. So, yeah, you kind of have to either be at work or not at work. I don’t have really anymore questions. I’ve really enjoyed this conversational nature of this last little segment and the food. Is there anything that comes to mind that you want to say or share, or just off the top of your head? Feel free to take the mic.
(00:18:26.9)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
Your show says we’ve talked about everything. So, I think it covers pretty much all of our concept and what you can find in this place, and how it came to be what it is today. We weren’t expecting this. The success that we have today was due to the passion that we put on.
(00:18:45.7)
Harry Hawk:
I was going to ask, “Is this is a passion project?”
(00:18:48.1)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
It was definitely a passion project. We never expected anything like this and it was just a way of transmitting our tastes and likes, and what should Mexico taste like for everyone exactly today.
(00:19:01.1)
Harry Hawk:
So, I’d like you to talk to a very specific audience. I don’t know if they’re really listening. But back at New York City College of Technology, a college within CUNY in the Hospitality Management Department, we have about a thousand students and we are incredibly diverse. So, I mean the student body come from everywhere of every age and every possible origin. But within that are a number of individuals who were either born or their families are from Mexico and as each student does they bring everything they have to the learning, and then they pickup everything that’s taught. A student from Korea can bring their Korean culture and food, and our students, again, have the direct or indirect cultural heritage of Mexico. Is there something that you might say to them as they’re contemplating a career in hospitality, a career in the kitchen or front of house wherever it may be? Something that you’ve learned here about following passion, about taking chances and risks?
(00:19:59.6)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
I would definitely bet on anything that’s Mexican today, because we’ve come to a point where finally all of the Mexican traditional ingredients, places, all of our cuisine, our type of service, which is something that we enjoy too and that’s noticeable. And I would bet on anything like this, but you first have to be in love with everything that is ours. If you do that with passion then it’s almost certain that people will appreciate it in any other country or this country itself and success will be a consequence of this passion for what is ours and how to express it. And there’s millions of ways to be representing Mexico. So, I think anyone that’s passionate about the Mexican universe go ahead plan it with all of the structuredness that is needed I think we will be successful together.
(00:20:51.5)
Harry Hawk:
I happen to agree. I’m about to take a picture. So, three, two, one. And you can take a look and see if that’s any good. So, we are coming to the end of all these little episodes and we’ve really imposed far too much time on some very busy folks. But I hope you have been listening and have picked up something of the food, the culture, the people and most especially have picked up the passion of Juan Pablo and his staff here. And they’ve been fantastic to me from the moment I walked in not knowing who I was and then as we’ve been interviewing and how they’ve been really attentive to our needs and really at the same time respecting the fact that we’ve been recording. I would ask both Nicholas and Juan Pablo once again to tell people where they can find you and on the Internet and otherwise.
(00:21:36.1)
Juan Pablo Ballesteros:
So, we are located in the heart of downtown Mexico City. The street name is Allende, the number is three and we are located a few steps from Tacuba Street. We are really close to Bellas Artes a fines art palace and an emblematic building of the city. A very beautiful one too. And you can locate us on the number 55.21.55.76. The Twitter is @Limosnerosmx. Our Facebook page is Limosneros. The webpage is Limosneros.com.mx.
(00:22:08.5)
Nicholas Gilman:
And you can read my review at goodfoodmexicocity.com. Just look for Limosneros, www.goodfoodmexicocity.com.
(00:22:17.7)
Harry Hawk:
My name is Harry Hawk and you have been listening to an extended, overtime and wonderful conversation about food and culture. I hope that everybody has a great day. You can find me on Twitter @hhawk and you can find this podcast and many others at talkingabouteverything.com. Again, I hope you have a great week. Bye-bye.
(00:22:37.8)
Chuck Fresh:
My name is Chuck Fresh and I’m being paid to thank you for listening to Talking About Everything with Harry Hawk. Harry wants to hear from you on Twitter @hhawk or HarryHawk@gmail.com. And now, a word from our sponsor, life extension coach and favorite chef. Hawk Digital Marketing is focused on bringing brands and people together. We build communities of interests based on trust and transparency where consumers and brands can converse, learn, discuss or solve problems together while creating a long-term connection, entanglement, between you and your customers. Once connected we help you engage, communicate, sell, present, educate and inform. Evolve your communications with us Hawksocialmarketing.com.
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